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2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

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What solution is the best?

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Total Votes : 8

2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by Orange on Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:07 pm

Hello everyone, recently in the first 2v2 hosted tournament we quickly saw a very popular class combination hit the bracket hard both sides being won by it very triumphantly. SpiralShowdown is all about unique and open minded strategies and attempting to create a more variety of play styles other then over centralizing on combinations like Trees and Nausica Fort stacking->Rush. With that being said this also goes for 2v2 and class combo's that could over centralize the use of a certain power, or in this case. Black Fog. This is a very powerful move in this particular team battling due to its ability to hide the ENTIRE team, so after hearing a bit of issues regarding it and it clearly being a prominent thing up for discussion. Lets talk about it.

1) Is this an issue or am I just crazy?
2) How do we approach this if you don't agree with any of the following ideas
3) What are your ideas to balance this?

My ideas:
1) We remove the ban on the Grizzly Beast banner to bring in a more open but a more centralized 2v2 meta where you're either Buckler+Privy/Dble Buckler or Summon Swarming
2) We outright ban Black Fog, if there isn't any banner cheese why should we let Fog cheese its way to easy crowns, sounds fair?
3) Lets create a more creative ruling to both allow fog but limit its power in 2v2, e.g. X amount of units can be under it (3 excluding Pirates, perhaps?)

Please vote for one of these options in the poll, if you go with 3 but don't like the idea of the limit of how many units can be affected by it and have a better solution feel free to share it! Or if you agree with the limit of units affected by it, how many do you think should be the max?

Thanks everyone!
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My Feedback

Post by Alphastaire on Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:11 pm

Orange wrote:Hello everyone, recently in the first 2v2 hosted tournament we quickly saw a very popular class combination hit the bracket hard both sides being won by it very triumphantly. SpiralShowdown is all about unique and open minded strategies and attempting to create a more variety of play styles other then over centralizing on combinations like Trees and Nausica Fort stacking->Rush. With that being said  this also goes for 2v2 and class combo's that could over centralize the use of a certain power, or in this case. Black Fog. This is a very powerful move in this particular team battling due to its ability to hide the ENTIRE team, so after hearing a bit of issues regarding it and it clearly being a prominent thing up for discussion. Lets talk about it.

1) Is this an issue or am I just crazy?
2) How do we approach this if you don't agree with any of the following ideas
3) What are your ideas to balance this?

My ideas:
1) We remove the ban on the Grizzly Beast banner to bring in a more open but a more centralized 2v2 meta where you're either Buckler+Privy/Dble Buckler or Summon Swarming
2) We outright ban Black Fog, if there isn't any banner cheese why should we let Fog cheese its way to easy crowns, sounds fair?
3) Lets create a more creative ruling to both allow fog but limit its power in 2v2, e.g. X amount of units can be under it (3 excluding Pirates, perhaps?)

Please vote for one of these options in the poll, if you go with 3 but don't like the idea of the limit of how many units can be affected by it and have a better solution feel free to share it! Or if you agree with the limit of units affected by it, how many do you think should be the max?

Thanks everyone!

I feel like 3 would be the best option, I'll discuss all of the ideas first though.

My feedback on your ideas:
1. The un-ban on the Grizzly Beast Banner would not help that much in terms of the combination of Privateer and Swashbuckler and it would probably still be op. Though summons could hold back the opposing team a bit better with the un-ban.

2. Banning fog is outrageous, as much as I hate to say it being a Buccaneer. Black Fog is pretty much a Swashbuckler's Ace Card, and helps Swashbucklers a lot in PvP. Completely removing it would deeply injure a Swashbuckler's options.

3. This is a lot more reasonable than banning fog. For example, this would still allow a Swashbuckler to use Fog effectively while limiting it. Hiding an ENTIRE team would make the opposing team's ability to attack useless and if the team that's hidden gets to the opposing team and attacks with buffs, it would be devastating even with forts and absorbs. You can't protect everyone after all, so this would be a good option.

Feedback to questions:

1. Don't worry, you're not going crazy. Hiding an ENTIRE team poses a huge threat to the opposing team, they would have to hold off on their buffs and try to protect everyone. But they won't be able to protect everyone and a large amount of companions would be taken out with the Privateer's buffs, and after that if the Swashbucklers are protected by the Privateers they'll do even more damage.

2. N/A

3. I think restricting Fog by having them be able to only hide 3 or 2 units (Excluding characters of course.) would help a lot with the damage taken by the other team. It's the best and most fair nerf I can think of without having a horde of Swashbuckler mains attacking us. Laughing Of course you could also nerf Privateers but I think that might be a bit unfair.


Last edited by Alphastaire on Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:19 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Errors)
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by Lucas Kidd on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:27 am

Obviously banning black fog completely from group pvp would make it so that no swashbuckler's would be used, because we'd basically have no contribution to the team. With that being said I feel like limiting the amount of units fog can be used on would be the most optimal solution, because not only will it keep swashbucklers in play, but also in check at the same time. Wolf and myself went double privateer in the 2v2, we had a good setup, and were doing good until we fought Zoe and Oliver. We used scorpions to hold back their fog but it just wasn't enough, they simply waited the extra turn and then hit us, and hit us quite hard. There really was no coming back from that. So I agree with only allowing fog to hide 3 companions and the pirates, and some other ideas would be as followed-

1. Do not allow banner, it would make double privy/privy & witch the only, or most used setup
2. Allow Scratch, but he can only use his small & medium buff, the major would be banned and only have one per team
3. Make it so that in team pvp, fog and walk in darkness count as protections, I noticed a few times in the finals that Zoe was practically unkillable due to the risks of purging killing us in the process.

Thank you for reading, feel free to elaborate on these ideas
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by Edward Teach on Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:15 pm

I looked at all the suggested solutions above and came up with a few of my own, and they are as follows:

1. Ban having 2 pirates of the same class in 1 team. An example would be a team of 2 privateers.

2. limit black fog to 4 player use ( companions and characters, not including the person using it. ) .

3. Allow 1 old scratch per team. Also allow his 25% mojo boost, and a choice of either his 100% or 50% mojo boost.

4. Allow beast banner if only one set of summon scorpions is boosted by it.

5. Possibly banning having 2 of certain companions on 1 team ( possibly Nausica )

Keep in mind these are ideas for 2v2. Some of them might be good for 1v1, 3v3, and 4v4 as well. I certainly don't see any reason to limit black fog in 1v1,3v3, or 4v4. I certainly think it would be a good idea to ban having 2 pirates of the same class on 1 team for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. My beast banner rule should also apply for every PvP category, but the my scratch buff limit should only be for team PvP.

-Those are my ideas; thanks for viewing them. :-)

Ps. I will might try and be in the morphing tent after I'm done competing in a tournament. I plan on giving away free pet morphs for a set amount of time. I might make a video about what pets I have and what realm and time I will be doing these free morphs at. Please tell me if you have any ideas or suggestions for that. At this point I am only playing with the idea.


Last edited by Edward Teach on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:00 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : mistake with black fog number)
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by TheRealest on Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:30 pm

Hey everybody, Darius here I would like to address the following topics or at least give my 2 piece, un banning the grizzly banner in terms of 2v2 or heck 1v1 would be a game breaking change, as I have two tournaments under my belt it is definitely possible to win a 2v2 and 1v1 vs swashbucklers without banner, I don't have a buckler so no bias on this point, banning block fog is completely uncalled for, swashbucklers are swashbucklers due to that very card, if it were to be banned then tournaments would not be fun at all, part of this game is to look for ways to get around certain strategies or broken skills, and there is definitely a way to get around black fog, while I may have voted for there to be a creative solution to the card leaving it just the way it is, is a viable solution as well due to the simple fact that if black fog were completely removed there would be no melee classes due to the already lack of Buccaneers in tournaments, all in all concluding either A) leave things the way they are or B) change black fog but not in such a drastic manner in where there are no more swashbucklers. Thank you for taking your time to read this.
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I have changed my mind about black fog.

Post by Edward Teach on Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:41 pm

Hi there

Darius is absolutely right about that. There is no need to ban or restrict black fog. I was in the 2v2 as a privateer with a witch doctor and got 2nd place over all. If it is restricted, please limit it to 6 unites in fog.

That is all; as always, thanks for your time. Very Happy
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by Lucas Kidd on Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:01 pm

We are looking to first try limiting to only 3 units under fog at once(not including pirate/pets) and will see where to go from there, thank you all for your feedback! We greatly appreciate everyone who gives us their opinions, because it helps us all in the long run! I hope to see you all in future tournaments, good luck and have fun!
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by BiG BaD WoLFY on Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:47 am

I personally think Fog is fine as is and nothing need really be changed. I say this because while yes, hiding an entire team can be "op", the fact that you must be grouped in such a specific way around the buckler leaves you open to a bunch of open bomb hits (hitting "the entire team"). Also, to swashbucklers, black fog is their ONLY "group buff", and taking that away from them or even limiting it vs classes like witch and privy with bombs/scorpions. Not to mention how relatively easy it is to avoid even half the damage that a fully fogged team is capable of producing by other powers/obstacles (scorpions, more spaces to go through, raise barricade, first strike companions etc.).

Unbanning beast banner would also be a bad move imo because then privateer/witch combos can EASILY abuse the summons they are allowed in team match.

Also I saw someone mention scratch. I dont remember what the comment was but scratch's mojo buffs should definitely remained banned in all team pvp (anthing NOT 1v1).


There are clearly a lot of great strategies that many class combos can pull off, but in this particular case with fog, I say the MOST that should happen is that FOG counts as a protection in TEAM pvp ONLY. I see it as more than fair given what each class brings to the table in team pvp as a whole, and honestly I think it's better to not limit classes unless there are MORE THAN JUST A FEW moments where fog has no real VIABLE counter (and we all know it has MANY so I'll leave that there).


If it's not an overwhelming problem, no need to ban/restrict anything since both teams know what they are up against more or less from the moment the step on the sigil.

Thanks for this discussion thread, and I hope people can look at things with a more open mind regarding restricting/banning powers/companions etc. in the future.

-Wolfy
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Here is another Idea for black fog.

Post by Edward Teach on Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:06 am

Hi there, guys!

I came up with another completely new idea. It might be a good idea to make it so that black fog can only be used after a certain number of turns.

Thanks for viewing this comment Very Happy

-Edward Teach
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by BiG BaD WoLFY on Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:40 am

Upon further reflection, I honestly have to ask what about fog in 2v2. Yes, 8 units hidden and extra threatening for 5 rounds, but why is fog being portrayed as an issue? I don't think there is enough concrete evidence behind "fog being a problem" to justify any ban or restriction in the slightest.

What about double privateer teams who can keep their units alive forever with forts/heals? Why is fog, the SIGNATURE power bucklers truly even thrive off of, even being brought up as an apparent "problem" when that IS what swashbucklers add in 2v2? Are we forgetting how a privateer is basically on every single winning 2v2 team, or WHY that is so?

To be honest I think the best solution is Banning double classes in 2v2. Imo, we don't give people enough credit for KNOWING what they are up against every time they step on the sigil. If a team is prepared to win, they will have counters ready for the general threats of the opposing classes and their "combos".


Long story short, don't join a fight you can't win, and if you genuinely CAN'T win, well THAT'S when there is a problem, NOT when a "popular strategy" is used time and timeagain.



Think about the BIG picture, that's where you'll see what is a problem or not.

-Wolfy
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

Post by TheRealest on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:29 pm

Fog will definitely be a problem if you limit the number of storms, bombs, summons, and forts we have, a buckler without anything stopping it's path can probably knock a companion or even a captain down to zero fully, forts are an essential to staying alive and I truly hope that it does not change, as for summons (I'm known as a cheese player) even though my summons don't do anything when someone is hidden, we can place barricades around us and since summons attack barricades, a buckler can't take full advantage of fog, fog should stay the same, but limiting every defense we have against fog is a big no no I'd say.
Thanks for taking your time to read this somewhat annoying argument
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Re: 2v2 Black Fog (Open Discussion)

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